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House of Commons, 30 March 1999
Clause 11
Right to be accompanied
Mr. Brady: I beg to move amendment No. 40,
in page 5, line 38, at end insert--
'(1A) This section shall not apply to an employer who shows
that to comply with it would conflict with his religious beliefs.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this, it will be
convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 41, in clause 12, page 6,
line 33, at end insert
'but such a complaint shall not succeed if the employer can
show that he was unable to comply as a consequence of his religious
conscience.'.
No. 39, in schedule 1, page 26, line 23, after ''22',
insert
'except for reasons of religious conscience.
Mr. Brady: In view of the lateness of the
hour, I shall endeavour to be brief. However, I would not wish any hon. Member
to draw an inference from that that the matter was any the less serious. I
tabled the amendment with particular regard to the rights of some of my
constituents who are members of the Plymouth Brethren. Many other hon. Members also
represent communities of Plymouth Brethren in different parts of the country.
In Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham
(Mr. Bercow) and I spoke in support of amendments that would have protected the
freedom of members of the Plymouth Brethren to practise their religion in the way that they believe is
appropriate and right, and which they have followed for some 150 years in this
country.
30 Mar 1999 : Column 990
During that time, members of the brethren have benefited from the religious
freedom and tolerance of which many of us are proud. They are a decent,
God-fearing group of people who seek to live their lives strictly according to
holy scripture. I note that some Labour Members seem to find that amusing. I
find that rather disappointing; I regard the matter as having the gravest
significance. Members of the Plymouth Brethren and other religious communities will
be disappointed by the reaction of the Labour Members who find what I am saying
amusing.
Mr. John Maxton (Glasgow, Cathcart): It
will not make the slightest difference to any Member of the House of Commons
what the Plymouth Brethren thinks of us,
because its members never vote in general elections.
Mr. Brady: I thank the hon. Gentleman for
making that point. It is important, because to some hon. Members, it matters
what people in our country are free to do, regardless of their ability to reward
either individual Members or political parties with their votes. I take pride in
the fact that I am speaking for a group of people who do not participate
directly in the political process. That is all the more reason why they need
Members of Parliament who are prepared to speak for their interests.
I do not share the brethren's religious beliefs--and I do not
wish to be diverted by Labour Members who clearly do not take religious freedom
and tolerance seriously. It is disappointing, and embarrassing for the House,
that some Members take that stance. However, I shall return to my main point.
The Plymouth Brethren is a fairly small community, but its
members run 1,200 businesses, mainly small ones, which employ 6,500 people, all
but 2,000 of whom are members of the brethren. In general, they are among the best
of employers, and I have heard no one question that assertion. In the conduct of
their businesses, and in the relations between employer and employee, they are
beyond reproach.
The Plymouth Brethren's interpretation of scripture is that
the master-servant relationship is God-given. It is not appropriate, therefore,
for any organisation to intervene in that relationship.
Mr. Fabricant: Does my hon. Friend fear
that some people may claim to be members of the Plymouth Brethren in order to extricate themselves from
the Bill's provisions?
Mr. Brady: No. Members of the Plymouth
Brethren live a particular type of life.
My hon. Friend's point could be made on virtually any aspect of the Bill. Every
other part of it can be established before an industrial tribunal, and I cannot
see why the validity of someone's claim to be a member of a particular religious
community cannot come into the same category.
The Plymouth Brethren's religious beliefs mean that its
members do not think it appropriate for trade unions or trade or employers
associations to intervene in the relationship between master and servant. That
has important implications for the recognition aspects of the Bill and for
representation in grievance hearings.
The hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton)
has pointed out that the Plymouth Brethren does not participate in the political
process. That is no reason why
30 Mar 1999 : Column 991 we should not seek to defend its freedom.
This is not a party political matter. When it was debated in Standing Committee,
Labour Members gave a more mature response than some of them have tonight. This
is a fundamental matter of religious freedom and tolerance. Earlier debates have
related to tolerance for other groups, and I cannot see why the Plymouth Brethren
should be treated with any less
respect, though others clearly take a different view.
The Minister of State, Department of Trade and
Industry, the right hon. Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney), said in
Committee that the Plymouth Brethren, of
which he has had some experience in his constituency, is
"a religious community beyond reproach".---[Official
Report, Standing Committee E, 25 February 1999; c. 164.]
He said that he had some difficulty
understanding the community's position, and that difficulty goes to the heart of
the matter. Many of us, on both sides, may find it difficult to understand the
position adopted by the Plymouth Brethren. Perhaps none of us chooses to live
as its members do. However, that does not make their choices any less valid, and
it does not constitute a reason not to tolerate their religious views, or not to
give them the freedom that we enjoy.
The Minister of State also said that the accompanying
person in a grievance procedure would be there to advise and support, not to
intervene or answer questions. However, the Bill says, in clause 11(2)(b) and
(c) that the person is
"permitted to address the hearing"
and
"is to be permitted to confer"
during the hearing.
The Bill clearly intervenes in the relationship
between master and servant, and between employer and employee. The amendment is
of the utmost importance because it goes to the heart of the religious freedom
and tolerance for which our country is known and in which we--at least, the
Conservatives--believe. I hope for a constructive response from the Minister.
Mr. Bercow: I am pleased to rise in
support of my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale, West (Mr. Brady).
In so doing, I say at the outset that I am genuinely saddened and shocked by the
reaction of a number of Labour Members. In particular, it is a source of regret
to me and--I suspect--several others that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart
(Mr. Maxton), who is a long- serving Member of Parliament and someone who sits
on the Chairmen's Panel on behalf of Members of this House, should behave with
such gross disrespect to a community of people who wish to defend and uphold
their right to live their lives in the way that they think fit. If the hon.
Gentleman does not have the nous to appreciate that he has behaved contemptibly,
that says more about him than it does about the Conservative Opposition or
members of the Plymouth Brethren. The
same goes for other Labour Members, many of whom are in a tired and emotional
state tonight. If they think such behaviour is funny or clever, or that it
elevates them to a higher plane than the people on whom they sit in judgment, it
is lamentable. Tolerance is not about putting up with people of whom or
activities of which one
30 Mar 1999 : Column 992 approves: it is about putting up with
activities one dislikes and people of whom one disapproves or whom one does not
understand. If right hon. and hon. Members are not open to that blindingly
obvious point, it is very regrettable.
Members of the Plymouth Brethren, as my hon. Friend the Member for
Altrincham and Sale, West pointed out, are God-fearing people. There are members
of the Plymouth Brethren in many
constituencies and at least 50 in my constituency. I know that the Minister of
State, Department of Trade and Industry, to whom we wish a speedy recovery, has
had several meetings with members of the brethren over many months. He was good enough
to say in Committee that they had always made their case effectively and
courteously to him.
Mr. Byers indicated assent.
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