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The Treatment of Women
8 August 1998
Re the note of 19 June 1998. [ See Meeting Room Construction
] It's good to see the caring side of the EB males - "the women were
allowed to come in to do the dusting and hoovering when it was almost
finished."!!!
A life of dusting, hoovering, having kids, interchange and all the time
a prisoner in a house. What joy to be able to dust and hoover a hall
instead of your house - what a change of scene!
Dick - perhaps you should open up a new page on the treatment of women
in the EB's. The numbers of young women who break free of this terrible
cult are less than men. Given their life of drudgery (my mother's words)
you would think that it would be easier. The information contained on such
a page, particlarly women's views may help.
Keep up the good work.
Posted 13 August 1998
Back in the early 1980's I attended a Lutheran church that had a woman
pastor. I was single at the time and so was she, and I got to know her a
little. She was the daughter of a Lutheran pastor and was an outstanding
preacher. She gave me some books on the role of woman in Christian
churches historically. I don't remember very much of the detail of the
books I read, but the message was clear...There are a few well-known
scriptures that seem to indicate men should dominate women, but the thrust
of Jesus' ministry was that men and women are equal.
Given time, a scarce commodity these days, I'll see if I can find any
of those references.
--Dick
Received 17 August 1998
If you are pregnant amongst the brethren you are not allowed to travel
to any fellowship meetings, three day meetings or intermingles (which are
long distance interchanges that take place once a month). You have to sit
at home. If you are breast feeding you are not allowed to go either (the
scripture they use is about Sarah remaining in the tent). No woman is
allowed to talk to another male if she is married and definitely not open
the door to one if her husband is not around. You can only talk to another
male if your husband is with you and before you are married you are not
allowed to speak to a male until he has bought a house and then you have
to be married within about 6 weeks, again without corresponding with him
(and definitely not getting to know him) Love comes later they believe.
Righteousness, faith, love, peace.
--Withheld
Received 19 August 1998
First of all the day would begin by rising by at least 7 am and seeing
your husband off to work. Then at 7.30am get the children up and dressed
and ready for breakfast all for 8.00am, depending on various stages of
life getting ready for the days school work for starting at 9.00am.
While the kids were in education the woman's job is never finished, she
has no time to sit around and do anything she will like to do.
While they are being taught she is busy Cleaning, Ironing, &
Washing and getting the lunch ready for the children when they come home
from school (if they lived too far away to walk to and from school wives
had to pick their kids up), then she would clear up and she would have to
think about the children when they came home from school then proceed to
get the kids ready for the evening meeting and cook the evening meal in
time for when husband returned in from work tired and in need of a wash.
Women could do no other than their chores and look after the children
and care for their husband.
In the meetings the only time you heard their voices would be when they
gave out a Hymn. If husband and wife were talking you would have to be
quiet and let the husband do all the talking, even if it was the woman
that may have been asked the question.
Women were never taught how to fend for themselves thus it is harder
for them now when they have left!!!
I feel the women suffer more that the men. There are a lot of men that
leave and I think an awful lot of men, the reason why you never hear of
women leaving much I think is because they find it harder to come to terms
with all they have done. By leaving, you were always made to feel guilty
and it sticks in some cases.
--PCB
Received 2 September 1998
We knew of one women who had 11 children under the age of 24 years. She
stated she was so tired / stressed / life had no meaning etc etc that "I
cannot wait for the Lord to take me home." With one baby on breast, and
six complaining, crying and wanting nappies changed etc etc she continued
with the household chores while the husband refused to vacuum the house
"as it is the women's role." When she complained she was deemed
"insubordinate / disrespectful of the husband as head of the household
etc." When, as the EB's in South Africa had up until the early 70's, she
wanted to hire home help this was refused.
What a life!
This was typical of the attitude of the men in the EB's during the 70's
when I was in my teens. My recollection was of this attitude permeating
right through all the males in the EB's - the only difference was the
degree to which they had this attitude.
--Anonymous
Received 2 September 1998
It was a very, very stifling life, especially when one had a brain and
wasn't allowed to put it to good work, i.e. education, challenging work,
etc.
--Anonymous
Received 17 September 1998
When a sister wanted to go shopping she was encouraged to go with
another sister.
We were never supposed to go shopping on a Saturday it was thought
wrong. Although a lot got away with it.
In the holidays I used to take my kids out to various suitable places.
If anyone asked me where I had been they would ask if I had gone on my
own. When I replied yes they would say that was very wrong of me, I should
have gone with someone else.
They always think the worst of everyone, they can never trust anyone.
You have to always let someone know of your whereabouts so they can think
of you.
Women really have no freedom to think for themselves, or to make any
suggestions. On one occasion they came to it that the women should answer
someone only if they were spoken to they should not answer a question if
their husband was present.
Some sisters could get away with it, depends who you were.
--Anonymous
Received 2 October 1998
I distinctly remember on one or several occasions the suggestion that
came in about the sisters not needing to go to so many Fellowship meetings
as their husbands. The husbands would generally go maybe once a yr or
more, the sisters however went once every two years.
The children did not go unless they were 12 and then that would mean
that they would not have seen Mr J S Hales til then. It was very hard on
them. That would apply to any child. Children under the age of 12 were not
allowed to go therefore there were a lot of babysitters around.
The mothers were obviously not in need of much help then.! It is beyond
meaning as to why the women have to be treated in such an awful way. At
least now we are free from such rules.
--Anonymous
Received 30 October, 1998
I remember one local "priest" telling his wife to shut up as it was not
for a woman to comment on spiritual matters.
A dispicable belief apparently still held and becoming more entrenched
day by day.
--Anonymous
Received 5 November 1998
My mother had terrible medical problems and numerous specialists stated
that she needed a Hysterectomy. My father spoke to the local "priests" who
then spoke to Symington to seek permission for the operation to be done.
The "word from the Elect Vessel" was passed on to us - the answer was no
operation. It was stated that such an operation would interfere with God's
creation etc etc.
My poor brainwashed mother - how she suffered for years. One wonders
what Symmington's reaction would have been if it had been my father with
testicular cancer instead. I'm sure it would have been OK to have the
offending item removed.
Any other readers of this site know whether women are still suffering
like this?
--Anonymous
Received 2 December 1998
I left the PB's in 1970 (pre Aberdeen) My Mother was a fanatic devotee
of Brethrenism. But she hated housework so Dad did the cleaning, shopping,
cooking plus his fulltime job. My dear father kept us children from
absolute neglect while my mother read JND, Bible and the Ministry.
I married an outsider and went to University where I gained a BA
(English Lit. and Politics Major) My eldest daughter is a lawyer and my
youngest is a computer whizz in office systems.
I will never allow myself to be controlled again.
--Withheld
Received 2 January 1999
I saw a sister and her husband in town today and they looked so sad but
it is so true that the women are not allowed to shop on their own any
more.
--Anonymous
Received 16 January 1999
I married a man who grew up in closed bretheren in NJ they left in the
middle of the night when he was 7. I knew nothing about Bretheren when I
married him. We are now seperated and I just can't handle the Control.
We're going to go to counselling together how can I help him to change?
--outsider
Received 20 January 1999
Local 'priests' would have been in trouble ( I was) if advice was not
taken from JHS as to any matter. The problem was that I could try for days
on end to contact him while knowing that the subject(s) of my concern were
still in spiritual, mental and perhaps physical 'limbo' - it was most
distressing. The brethren all over the world were trying to contact him
regarding their 'matters'
When we finaly got through on the phone it was often in the early hours
of UK time and mid afternoon in USA. The message was often repeated by
Mrs. Symington to her husband and his answer conveyed to us by her. We
hung on every word that was relayed to us and I'm sure that sometimes the
wrong message was received, either because we heard what we wanted to hear
or because we had not made ourselves clear. Trying to comunicate in UK
English and receiving messages in US English is a little complicated at
any time but when the subject may involve the trauma of someone you love
being withdrawn from and the breakup of a family it is a horrific
responsibility. There was never any written confirmation of these phone
calls but now and again a particular call would be mentioned in the
meeting afterwards and printed. Sometimes it contradicted what had been
understood over the phone but, of course, by then action had been taken.
When JHS was travelling the globe these phone calls for 'priestly
guidence' would follow him to whatever house he was in. It was believed
that as he was 'the Elect Vessel' he could cope with all the questions and
answers. Was it a real desire to help? Was it presumption to be able to
cope with the detail of a world wide group of people? Was it a desire to
control? What was it? Perhaps someone can shed some light on it.
The same situation occured with JtJr and I'm sure with JSH.
To a lesser degree it applied to national and local leaders who were
expected to make the most devastating judgements on matters on which they
relied on the information mostly received from one person whom they
trusted.
--Anonymous
Received 21 January 1999
Re 20 January 1999 comment.
The thousands of telephone calls flood into Hales' residence. Again,
decisions are made following a telephone call. The ability to stay on top
of all matters (micro-managing) must be questioned.
The relaying of messages through Mrs Symmington was a frequent
occurance. As the writer states, this invariably leads to
misinterpretation / confusion etc etc.
A fax might help!
--Anonymous
Received 22 January 1999
Growing up female in the Plymouth Brethren was a major contributor to
my poor sense of self worth. The expectations of women followed the
general society in the 50's and 60's (which was bad then). This mentality
was compounded among the Brethren. For example, at the age of 15 or 16
during a "care" meeting under the threat of "being put under discipline" -
I had to take a microphone in my hand, stand up and confess to everyone
there my 'sin' of cutting (the dead ends!) my hair, ask for forgiveness
for wearing a short skirt, confess and ask for forgiveness for listening
to the radio with some of the other pbs. It was a most humiliating
experience. Those other (male) pbs were not asked to stand up and do this.
There were other self-depricating things women had to do. Women were
constantly being reminded to 'bow' the head. The strongest negative
message came through via the seating arrangement. Husbands sat in the
inner circle and the women had to look at the backs of their heads for
hours because they all were required to be anywhere else in the room
EXCEPT in the 'inner circle'. And mouths clamped shut. My mother would
make non verbal sounds like sucking her teeth or gasping and sighing
whenever she felt strongly about something. Pretty ridiulous! As a young
person this only served to intensify the relationship between the sexes to
near frenzy..... The other thing I remember was the life expectations of
females. Clearly, you were expected to 1.Find an available pb male. 2. get
married. 3. have children. That was it! Given that, we had "hope chests"
as a kind of rite of passage. We would then fill them with treasures that
we would use in our future life. Sadly, the women's conversation were
primarily talking about someone else, about material things and
competition for Brand names. Sadly, there wasn't much else - we were
allowed so little in our lives. In retrospect I am deeply sad about the
way we were discouraged from getting any formal education. ("Philosophy
and vain deceipt") In fact, I remember a female older than me who had
received a scholarship to Stanford University who was told: "Either you
quit Stanford or you will never see your family again." She decided to
continue her education. What a horrible decision she had to make! Her name
was spoken in only the most hushed tones after that. How profoundly she
was affected in her life! She was not allowed to see her family again,
either for 30+ years after that. The only Biblical women we heard about
were Martha and Mary which served to emphasize serving and washing feet,
and being ever so humble! Nobody told me about wonderful Deborah and her
courage! The brethren have all of the pins in place to sustain vital
control over the females in the group. (unmarried females are suspect!)
Women were not allowed to have a voice in anything at all. The message was
clear to a young female : you are not important! It has taken me years to
rethink and undo all of those negative messages. And I'm still working on
it.
--Suzanne Gleason (Howell)
Received 25 March 1999
There is no fun being a woman in the Exclusive Brethren, nothing to
look forward too, life is a drudge.
Regular Patern of the typical Housewife in the Brethren.
- Wake up. By this time the kids would have said goodbye to daddy who
had gone too work already.
- Get children ready for school those that could by themselves would
need a chivvy along. Give them their Breakfast
- Clear away breakfast and tidy house.
- Take all those that go to school to school or get ready to be taught
at home.
- Do any housework that needed to be done (which was never ending
always had to have the house tidy).
- Get ready for the lunch time when the kids would be home.
- Go and pick them up and after lunch take them back.
- Clear lunch away tidy up and make preperations for evening meal.
- Go and pick the kids up from school.
- Guive them a snack.
- Finish doing the dinner.
- Get kids changed and ready for the meeting, have dinner. (husbands
were home from work by about 6.00pm).
- Get themselves ready for meeting then out of the door.
They have no time for themselves at all.
As I said it is a complete drudge, totally boring and not a break from
it all. Every day is the same.
In doing all that you had to find time to keep up going to the meetings
and doing all the other things a woman should do in there, shopping etc.
You when going shopping were meant to go with someone else as it was for
protection in case anything else happened.
The only happiest memories I have of being a women in there was when I
had my children and when my husband came home from work.
They would expect you to entertain a house full of brethren when you
were feeling under the weather. Anything up to 14 extra for dinner and 20
extra for teas.
No food was brought we had to provide all of it for ourselves.
After a long Sunday at the meetings this would happen and you could not
complain.
Sunday Meetings would be:
- Breaking of Bread 6.00am
- Reading 9.00am
- Preaching 10.10am
- Preaching 12.30pm
- Preaching 4.00pm
Sound a drudge to you?
It was too [for] me -- a young mum of four kids.
--Priscilla
Received 28 March 1999
I am sad to say that the work of a woman in the Peeb's is that of a
"SLAVE" and you can not give it another name.
She has to have meals ready at all times, get the kids ready and off to
school, teach them, clean and wash clothes, clean and tidy the house, do
all the shopping and go to all of the meetings.
I had to do all of the above and for me it was a drudge, I did not feel
good, I did not feel like I was doing it for anyone's benifit.
I felt like a Zombie half the time, saying Yes at the right times and
no when I should. The only time I enjoyed myself was when I went shopping
because I felt semi-free, but I was always looking over my shoulder, sure
that there was someone watching me, not like they said it was Jesus
watching over me, but them the peeb's.
They would always keep a close eye on anyone they could trip up for
doing something they did not like.
More rules to put up with. It was terrible, not life for a woman to
lead.
God Bless those that are too frightened to leave.
Priscilla
Received 3 July 1999
It is true that the women do all the chores around the home and as a
girl growing up in the church I learnt at a young age (9) how to cook,
clean etc . But I remember my Father coming home from work and helping my
Mother out ... sadly my Father left when I was five, I still remember it
tho cuz he used to carry me around on the vaccum cleaner while doing the
floors. I find now that I do all the work around my house while huddy
enjoys it ... I just can't break away from those early teachings. Rather
annoying :)
--Anonymous
Received 24 July 1999
I can't imagine what kind of life that is. Gosh, what a long Sunday you
must of endured. Why so long? It doesn't sound like you had much time to
share with your husband, just the two of you, or share in a family outing.
Did you ever go out as a family like to dinner, or a movie or even just to
the park for some relaxation, fun and change of scenery?
--Anonymous
Received 9 August 1999
In reply to the most recent anonymous, movies and eating in restaurants
were forbidden. It was possible to go for a car run in the country on the
odd fellowship meeting-free Saturday
--Alistair
Received 8 September 1999
I read here that women are not allowed to talk to men unless
accompanied by their husbands, not allowed to open the door to a man etc.
When I left in 1983 this was not the case. So many things have gotten
worse since then I know. But is this really strictly enforced now? A
"sister" walking out of a meeting room , say, would not stop to chat with
another "brother" unless she had her husband alongside? Or do I
misunderstand ? Is it just "worldly" men they can't speak to?
--Peter
Received 2 January 2000
A LOT OF B___ S___
--Anonymous
Received 30 January 2000
Perhaps the author of the 2nd January 2000 would be able to elaborate
or provide a more intelligent comment.
--Anonymous
Posted 30 January 2000
The writer of January 2 or someone of similar intellect has written a
number of messages. I have declined to post the entries.
--Dick
Received 7 February 2000
This summer, I and my family were at a fairly secluded beach when who
should appear but a family of EB's. Now, I understand that swimming may be
taboo, but the whole family went into the water. The part that struck me
as sad was that while the EB father and his sons all wore bathing shorts
and freely cavorted in the water, the EB mom waded in up to her neck FULLY
CLOTHED. Yes, there she was with her long denim skirt, cotton blouse and
obligatory kerchief'.
Certainly different rules depending on gender huh?
--Russ McDonald, Canada
Received 4 March 2000
EB women in Barbados are generally regarded by the public as
long-faced, unattracive, unappealing, uninteresting, and above all,
depressed beyond depressed.
Over the years I have learned that a great many of them are innerly
beautiful, socially famished souls who live in bodies of slaves. E.G. in a
household of adults, the mother will still pack lunches for working single
children, clean their rooms, mow the lawn, do their laundry and pressing,
mend their clothes--and still bear the load of every other sort of thing
referred to in the WOMEN site. It is not that they are burnt out from
non-stop giving and enslavement, but that there is no reciprocity to lend
value to the life they endure.
In addition to the usual household thing, the ubiquitous meetings, and
daily psychological pressure, many of them are keeping the children of
traveling or ill parents; assisting the elderly who can't come out or cope
for themselves; chauffering kids or women who do not drive; cooking for
conference; and on-on-on-on worldwithoutendamen.
It's distressing how many of the husbands are inept, uninterested,
often languid and tired, unresponsible in the home, and also depressed. I
do not lack sympathetic understanding: however, those adjectives cannot
justify ordering wives, to "Bring a beer for me"; "Put down what you're
doing and fetch that book from the bedroom"; or "Don't worry about the
cooking: get out and bring in the children from the yard." Also
on-on-on-endlessly, worldwithoutendamen.
In fairness, it needs to be said that some husbands do "spare" their
wives occasionally by ordering them to remain home and get in bed instead
of attending meeting. Also, the physical environment (including tropical
climate) and the whole Barbadian ethos would seem, in view of what I've
read, perhaps to soften life a bit for EBs there. We often remark that
"One can take a person from the Brethren: it is harder to take the
Brethren from a person." But more basic than that, one is first, last and
always Barbadian; and it is easier to excise Brethrenism than it is the
Barbadian ethos--a sheer impossibility!!
So very grievous to me is the absolutely unlimited and beautiful
potential lost in the women. Caring souls, they would have made such
lovely teachers, out-of-church leaders, contributors to a needy society,
counsellors, writers, nurses, doctors. May God help them all, and
graciously these dead living ladies.
--Anonymous
Received 5 March 2000
I married a man who is open brethren. The treatment I suffered
throughout the marriage was horrific. To "keep me in line" I suffered
beatings and rape. My son also wittnessed this. I am now going through
court with him. I am divorced but he still thinks he owns me. I worked
like a slave from 4am through to midnight. Everything had to be spotless
or I was in troubble. Dinner on time, constantly questioned on who I had
spoken to or seen. The worst is the isolation I felt. Not allowed to see
or speek to my family and old friends wich started just after we got
married. I am still very angery. I left this man 3 years ago and he's
still controlling me via court and lawyers. We never attended the brethren
church because he said that a low life like me would never be accepted. We
attended a Baptist church in which I became baptised. I have now charged
my ex with assult but I don't know how it will go because he has asked
church members to stand up and lie about me. I don't believe Jesus taught
the degradation of women. I belive man has distorted the teachings for as
to his own whims. Has any other woman had to use rags because their
husbands saw buying pads as an unnessary item? Has any other woman had to
sleep on the floor at the foot of the bed during that time of the month
because their husbands thought them dirty and disgusting as to bible
writings? Often I was embarrased in public for speaking or for not
following his orders. There is so much I have to say and I can't say it
all here and now. I am glad to be out of that living situation. At least
my son and I have a chance to live again. Thank you for listening.
--MC
Received 24 May 2000
The greatest gift is freedom; freedom to express yourself without
condemnation, freedom to choose your own lifestyle, without condemnation,
freedom to follow Jesus and know his love and acceptance without
condemation. It is interesting how many ex-brethren still follow the Lord,
we were always told that if you left you would lose your faith and have
'no father in heaven' - how untrue! Thank God I left the brethren &
had my children out of the church. I know without a doubt that God sees
women as equals in his sight, the greatest gift He gave me was his
salvation and freedom to be who I am without condemnation!
--Valerie Lovatt-Smith NZ
Received 2 June 2000
This is to MC of the March 5 message. Although you have been through
terrible ordeals, I am so glad that you and your son have the strength and
the will to "live again" as you put it.
The person (I didn't want to dignify this with the word man,) you
married is a criminal and a deviate and should probably be taken out back
and shot.
You are very brave to share your story, I hope you and your son will be
ok. I KNOW there are many of us "ex'EBers" who have read this and are
pulling for you. I am sorry I did not write sooner but just read your
message the other day.
MC, you say you have much to say; I am always here to listen and
support you in any way I can. Write to me here or e-mail me direct,
whichever you feel most comfortable doing. I am not a prankster; I am a
part of the EB Railroad and have a brief bio and some contributions etc.
on Dick's wonderful web-site.
Take care, my thoughts are with you and your son.
--Russ McDonald Russ.McDonald@gems2.gov.bc.ca
Received 18 September 2000
I am involved with helping people escape from another Culy, called the
2X2's. The Ministers go out ( both men and women) in pairs like the first
twelve and seventy Disciples. they are supposedly poor and homeless for
Jesus sake, and are called Workers. They claim to be from Jesus day, but
in fact were started by a man in the late 1800's. This fact was covered up
for Decades. They believe and teach that they are the only way to Heaven
and every other denomination and sect is going to Hell. The women have
long hair done up in some fashion, wear no make - up or jewelry. T.V.'s
are for the most part forbidden, and radio's frowned on. I was facinated
by the similarities in speech. Brethern, sisters, brothers, the world,
etc. being only a few. We have several Message Boards, in operation on the
Net, trying to free these people and I would like to invite you to mine.
the address is: http://pluto.beseen.com/boardroom/o/50334/
You do not have to use your own name or give an Email address. You can
quietly lurk and read the posts, or participate. I think this would be
most helpfull, because there are many that do not believe they are in a
Cult, and deny it. I was in the Cult for nearly fifty years. Thanks for
listening.
--Marge Reynolds
Received 16 December 2000
In relation to who's "fault" the mistreatment of women is. I think the
male leaders and teachers are to blame for promoting an interpretation of
Paul's writings which promotes their own self interest.
In my own experience, (which includes being a peeb until the grand old
age of 1!) and as a (male) deacon in an OB meeting who is trying to
"fight" for a church where there is truly "no jew nor gentile, no slave
nor free, no male nor female but all one in Christ Jesus" I have been
surprised that most of the oposition is not from the men (who tend to be
if anything just lazy in not challenging inherited tradition) but from
(some of) the women who look down on other women who want to take a fuller
part as somehow being less spiritual and "mouthy"!
--PM
Received 20 January 2001
I fell in love with a brethren woman and when they found out they put a
brick wall up between us to stop her from leaving.
I hate the EB's
--Dave
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