From: purcell family mailbox Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,alt.support.bruderhof Subject: What is Bruderhof ? formerly Re: What is Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 09:02:37 -0400 Organization: Erol's Internet Services Lines: 176 Message-ID: <33BA4C7D.6F4F@erols.com> References: <33AB0EBA.795A@worldnet.att.net> <5ohti3$f31@flatland.dimensional.com> <33b5626c.7205610@news.capital.net> <33b07c45.14485804@news.mindspring.com> <5p5g3u$961$1@orthanc.reference.com> <9tauzMdlg0kI092yn@islandnet.com> Reply-To: purcell@erols.com NNTP-Posting-Host: dam-as9s48.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Received-On: 2 Jul 1997 09:20:56 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-KIT (Win95; I) To: martinh@islandnet.com CC: purcell@erols.com Martin Hunt wrote: > > In article <5p5g3u$961$1@orthanc.reference.com>, wxc21@psu.edu wrote: > > >PLEASE LEAVE THE HUTTERITES OUT OF THIS. > > ? > > >The former association of the Bruderhof Communities with the > >Hutterites has brought enough grief to the Hutterites. > > Now, this is *really* confusing. As far as I know, all the Hutterites > *live* in colonies called "Bruderhofs". They do. Only the Bruderhof (tm) has trademarked the name (I believe the Hutterites could have stopped them - if they had "gone to law"). > > What kind of association are you talking about? The current Bruderhof (tm) was a acknowledged part of the Hutterite Church for many years (off and on). The Bruderhof (tm) has been known by several names during it's history including Society of Brothers, the Hutterian Brethren, a few others - and now the Bruderhof (tm) Communities. The Bruderhof under discussion does not farm as the western Hutterites do; they manufacture quality children's toys and live in smaller compounds. > May I ask what your relationship to all this is? Are you a Hutterite > living in a Bruderhof community, a break-away, what? What you're > saying literally doesn't make any sense to me; I can't make head > or tails of it. It is confusing. Wayne can speak for himself but, in short, he and his family lived at the Bruderhof (tm) for a few years. They left in disillusionment because the Bruderhof (tm) did not live up to it's representations. See Wayne & Betty's story at: http://www.exploremaine.com/~wbchesley/bhof/bhof.htm Also, don't forget, the Hutterites actually ex-communicated the Bruderhof (tm) and asked them, a few years ago, to stop using the name "Hutterite." Note they asked; they did not sue to protect their name. > >While some may disagree, the Hutterites do not exhibit the cultish > >characteristics of the Bruderhof, save that they maintain a > >peculiar sub-culture rooted in scriture and established 450 > >years ago, when they were hounded nearly destroyed by civil > >and eclesiastic authorities. > > ? All very confusing. Looking for some emlightenment on these > questions. It is felt by many that the Bruderhof (tm) "used" that 450 year religious history of the Hutterites to legitimize itself during the relatively brief association between the Bruderhof (tm) and the true Hutterites. About the only thing they had in common was certain Anabaptist beliefs (at one time), since abandoned by the Bruderhof (tm). > > >Any of the more conservative Anabaptist groups (Hutterite, > >Mennonite. Amish) will fall under someone's definition of a > >cult, > > Not mine. I've never considered any of these groups as "cults" > in the same way I think of Scientology, the Solar Temple, > Heaven's Gate, the Moonies, the Branch Davidians, etc. are > destructive cults. As families with relatives and friends within the Bruderhof (tm), we try not to think of the Bruderhof (tm) itself in the same light as we would the groups you mentioned. Then, of course, we recognize some to many of the same characteristics in the leadership of the Bruderhof (tm) as exhbited by those groups which are/were PLAINLY cults. And we worry. > You're thinking more of the religious scholar's use of the term, > which they apply to all kinds of small christian groups and do > not, as far as I can tell, mean much disparagement by it. > > >but the abuses of the bruderhof are quite different > >from any of the strict standards and peculiar characteristics of > >these groups. The Bruderhof "elder" said quite plainly (even > >though he said it under an alias) that the Bruderhoffers are > >"sick and tired of the Hutterites", the Hutterites tolerated the > >Bruderhoffers for a time, and tried to bring the Bruderhof around, > >but the hold the leadership has on the members of the Bruderhof > >were too strong and the Bruderhofers rejected the efforts of > >their brothers and sisters in the faith and became themselves > >unfaithful to the church they had committed themselves to. > > This paragraph just doesn't fit into my mental picture of what > the terms "Bruderhof" and "Hutterite" mean; to my mind, one can > go without the other. Hutterites live in colonies called > "Bruderhofs". For the western Hutterites, the use of the word Bruderhof to describe their colonies was just a fact of life, not a term to be trademarked, The word derives from the fifteenth century. Only the Bruderhof (tm), still piggy-backing on the reputation of the REAL Hutterites, has seen fit to trademark the term. > > Are there other kinds of Hutterites? Are the people living in > the Bruderhofs not Hutterites? Has there been some kind of > schism recently with many of the, what, 60 or so Bruderhofs > taking leave of the Hutterite collective? As above, the western Hutterites expelled the Bruderhof (tm) a few years ago. It has been discussed and described in this forum - though not this thread. > > >In short, the Hutterites are victims of the Bruderhofers cultish > >activities, not a part of it. Remember, part of this whole deal is the suit filed against Ramon Sender and the Peregrine Foundation over the publication of a letter from Christian Domer to Michael Waldner. If you read the letter in this forum, you will recognize the enmity felt by the Bruderhof (tm) against the "mother" church. > As far as I know, the two are inseperable ideas, like a pond > composed of water. Oil and water is a more accurate analogy. > > >I (gladly at the time) joined the Bruderhof with my wife four > >years ago. > > Which one? The eastern one (with locations in New York, Connecticut, Pennsylvania and the U.K. At the time, it WAS a part of the Hutterite Church. One of the concerns of church members who have chosen to leave the Bruderhof (tm) is that the church to which they made life-time vows no longer exists because of the continuous changes. So, when challenged over the decision they have made to break vows made to THE church(obviously a serious decision), they must answer "which church?" The church to which former members have made vows has changed so much and so often that the ideals that one generation literally died for in the jungles of Paraguay had changed so much (by the 1960's) no longer existed. Changes since then have affected later generations as well. > > The term seems to be used as some sort of collective; it's very > confusing. Think western Hutterites and the Bruderhof (tm) Communities (in the east and the U.K. > > >Christian pacifists do not sue at law. The Bruderhof (not the > >Hutterites) do of course bring lawsuits and other violent actions > >against their critics. > > Hmm; this would make them a cult by my definition, a destructive > and aggressive quasi-religious group. But I still cannot parse > the ideas "Bruderhof" and "Hutterite". I suspect these terms are > to some degree loaded, with different groups claiming rights to > them, much as some freezoners call themselves "Scientologists", > while Scientologists still in the cult structure proper label > them "squirrels", and the freezone "Scientologists" retaliate > with terms like "churchies" to them, and so on. > > Thank you for any clarification you can add to these terms. > > >Peace, > >Wayne Chesley > > ttyl, > martin. > Wayne can clear these matters up much more effectively than I; he lived there for three long years. His personal web page is devoted to the concept that other seekers (like himself) will be drawn to the Bruderhof (tm). He feels strongly that those seekers must have an alternative source of information to help in making that decision to join or not join. Sounds reasonable to me. Blair Purcell