Discussion about EST, The Forum, Landmark Education
Rob
I live with a couple of forum-heads. They're good people who believe in what they're doing; and yet, I continually read stuff like the following. It leaves me with ambivalent feelings towards the forum, to say the least. At the end is a statement by my housemate's fiance, who is heavily involved in the forum, in response to my response to an advertisement he did with me and a bunch of other netters. I leave it to you to judge what exactly *is* the forum and whether it will or can help (or otherwise) anybody.
First, a brief summary I dug up recently:
According to Margaret Thaler's Cults_in_Our_Midst, Landmark Education is a company that sells seminars, called the Forum. The Forum is a newer variety of the original EST, and both are/were run by Werner Ehrhard, who himself used to be in Scientology. These seminars involve coercive tactics and "thought reform" methods of psychological and personality manipulation. Because of these tactics, extreme caution should be taken before enrolling in any courses.
And now, the big file I've been collecting for a while:
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: testa@starbase.neosoft.com (Andrew J. Testa)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Landmark Corp.
Date: 21 Jul 1995 22:29:33 GMT
The entity known as Doug Shelton (dshelton@nps.navy.mil) posted:
* Please give any info on landmark "forum" program. Is this similar to
* scientology. Was this previously called EST? Why did they have to
* restructure thier entire program? Thanks in advance
STAY AWAY. An intense course that deconstructs personality and rebuilds it around continued participation in the group. Anal-retentive non-stop participation in seminars and advanced courses is sold HARD. Read on for details.
Landmark Forum is the current incarnation of est, begun by Werner Erhard in the 60s after he was declared Supressive by scientology. I'm not sure of the dates. Werner was a staffer in Co$ who squirreled: he changed the tech and thought he had a better way to "clear" people. After his SP declare (mentioned in Captain Bill's letter) he started est. Est was pretty abusive, relying on incredibly strict discipline, insults and shouting to break down the resistance of the "student". The effect is to break down the personality and rebuild it around the group. Through the years, Werner refined the techniques so that the abuse was no longer needed. The result was the Forum.
NOTE: Since est was and is a squirrel group, you are an SP for participating in it or belonging to it. Since I participated in it, I have used squirrel processes and am officially an SP, not just a self-declared!
I did the Forum around 1986. At that time, it cost $500 and took 4 1/2 days (two weekends, then a friday night). I got involved through a roommate. He was very enthusiastic about how it could transform my life, so I went with him to one of his weekly meetings. I was treated to a room full of very white people in nice clothes, all very positive and testifying as to how their lives had been changed by the Forum and their current involvement. I was then taken to a separate room and subjected to HEAVY sales pitches by about 5 staffers and volunteers. My roommate was there, and offered to loan me the money, and I agreed as I was a pretty wishy-washy sot back then. So of to the Forum I went.
The Forum attempts to deconstruct personal attachments in a non-abusive manner by focussing your attention inward: The basis is being kept in a hotel ballroom for 10 hour days with little sleep, listening to the same thing over and over and over. Most of it consists of having people look at their childhood, and find the events that caused them to make decisions about other people, especially their parents. Unlike Co$, this usually results in a CLOSER relationship with the parents. Once everyone has been reduced to tears through the constant confessions of the participants, the Forum leader builds everyone back up by directing their attention on using the Forum philosophy (still called a technology!) to better their relationships and self esteem.
Sounds good, eh? well, the strict discipline is still there. You can't go to the bathroom when you want, you take meals in groups, there are strict rules about talking and conduct, and the leader won't hesitate to shame you into compliance. Much of it is psychology parlor tricks, like making a headache go away by imagining it as a physical void in your head, and imagining it being filled. This goes on for four full days. The last 1/2 day is sales night. This night, all the participants are told to bring friends and relatives. The focus of the evening is on sales: signing up your relatives for the Forum, and signing YOU up for advanced classes.
Oops! What advanced classes? nobody said anything about advanced classes! Yes, you are again leaned on heavily by the staff to sign up for seminars. Their goal is to have you ALWAYS enrolled in a class. ALWAYS.
They claim to transform you in the Forum, but the transformation only lasts as long as you stay involved in the group. Now, when you've just finished the Forum, you're feeling on top of the world, so you sign up and testify for your family real hard. As well as participating in the seminars and Forum, they also rely on volunteers. Part of your involvement is to volunteer to help put on the seminars and Forum. In fact, most of the work is done by volunteers. There are very few paid staff.
I participated in several seminars and volunteered at seminars and a Forum. I took part in a sales barrage on friends and family during a Forum sales night. The approach is to not let people equivocate, not let them leave without signing up. "How much is the rest of your life worth?" is a common throw-away line. This group is really into the hard sell, and they are EXTREMELY anal-retentive and leader-oriented. Everything is ordered in excruciating detail, down to the separation between rows of chairs at seminars ( no shit, I had to use a ruler to measure). Any question about WHY something was done was met with a terse "because Werner said to do it that way".
I decided to stop participating after they began pressuring me to take the Six Day course. Six Days at a camp for intense further scrubbing of your cranium. At this time, I was a student working two jobs. This course cost over $1000 and I had none, so I had no intention of taking it, but they insisted. They told me to get a job that would pay for it. I refused to change my life plans to take this course, so I became a target for constant recruitment. The same happened when I refused to sign up for a further seminar. You see, to these people, when you stop participating it means you are allowing all those negative thoughts you purged to influence you again. You need them to keep you on the path to transformation. By wanting out, you PROVE you need their help. Well, they called me every single day for weeks. They would not even get off the phone, but would just tell me about the breakthroughs waiting, and how they would help me if they could, but they wouldn't accept no. They wouldn't get off the phone.
I had to hang up on them. They don't see social politeness as anything but equivocation, which is seen as a desire for help. So if you don't like being rude, they'll never leave you alone.
Now this was in 1986, recall. Is it still the same? Yes. A friend of mine did the Landmark Forum this year, before I could talk to her about it.
She confirmed that the personality deconstruction is still used, although it only takes 3 1/2 days now (friday-sunday, plus tuesday night). My step- son attended one of the meetings at the request of a friend this year, and he was disgusted by the shameless hard-sell. One of his friends was actually told to take up a collection from the strangers in the room so he could afford to sign up for the Forum.
A bit rambling, but hopefully it answers you question. As this question seems to keep cropping up, I'll save this post for future reposts.
--
/ Xenu stole my lunch money \
/ Andy Testa (KoX) I'm OT! I could KILL you with \
\ testa@hou.moc.com a thought! BWAAAHHAAAAHAAAAAA! /
\ Contributing to the downfall of Scientology since 1995. /
From: anon-remailer@utopia.hacktic.nl (Anonymous)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Landmark Corp.
Date: 22 Jul 1995 00:55:22 +0200
Comments: Hack-Tic may or may not approve of the content of this posting
Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to
Doug Shelton dshelton@nps.navy.mil wrote
*Please give any info on landmark "forum" program. Is this similar to
*scientology. Was this previously called EST? Why did they have to
*restructure thier entire program? Thanks in advance
It was previously called est (lowercase) for Erhard Seminar Training; then
became The Forum; then after Werner Erhard was described on national TV as
being less than reputable (I seem to remember allegations of wife beating and
molesting his daughter) he transferred his holdings to a corporation which
became Landmark.
est was a seminar where the instructors would scream at you, inform you what a
worthless piece of dreck you were, where you had to stay in your chair, and
you were not allowed to take rest room breaks (stopping to pee might interfere
with your "getting it").
It metamorphosed into the Forum where you had more frequent breaks and the
instructors didn't shout as much (kinder and gentler cult found to be
necessary when the novelty of paying to be verbally assaulted wore out).
It's similar to the CO$ in that it's an institutionalized way of separating a
sucker from his money and it always has new courses/seminars for additional
bucks. It never made it to legal religion status, but it could be considered
a cult. Erhard is probably as much of a megalomaniac as LRH was.
Best wishes,
SP ace
From: testa@starbase.neosoft.com (Andrew J. Testa)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: What about Werner Erhardt and Scientology ?
Date: 27 Mar 1995 17:53:23 GMT
The entity known as David Sternlight (strnlght@netcom.com) posted:
* In article <3kv7d9$jbv@uuneo.neosoft.com*,
* Andrew J. Testa <testa@starbase.neosoft.com* wrote:
* * The entity known as Per Sabelstrom (xkkpesa@osd.ericsson.se) posted:
* **I saw Larry King Live about a year ago featuring Werner Erhardt(of EST
* ** fame) , where
* ** he claimed that the Church of Scientology was after him.
* ** Can some of you guys tell me what exectly he is accused of ?
* ** Pelle
* *
* *Competition. All of Erhardt's organizations are on the official Co$
* *Suppressive Organizations list. Earhardt's own money making scam was
* *horning in on the profits in the "milk the insecure" game.
* Both of you know so little about Werner Erhard you can't even spell his *
name right.
* Before you start defaming someone, Testa, get some facts.
* David
Well then, David. Since you know so much about me, you should know that I
spent a little over a year of my life as an "esthole". That's right, I
flung big bucks into Werner's operation. I did the Forum thing, took the
classes and seminars, even shilled for him. I know a good bit about how
Werner's operation works, regardless of how he spells his name. And it WAS
and IS a 'milk the insecure' game. It turns introverted insecure people into
extroverted insecure people, hence the 'esthole' moniker. It relies on heavy
handed recruitment tactics, an initial course (the Forum) that consists of a
weekend-long highly regimented indoctrination that leaves you feeling great
after tearing down your emotionasl barriers. And wanting more.
It relies on continual participation and advancing class that cost large
bucks. It relies on members to volunteer their time as part of their
participation. It relies on strict discipline and regimentation with the
only justification being "because that's how Werner wanted it". It relies
on hounding those who decline to participate further, claiming the fact
they want to leave is proof that issues are preventing them from bettering
themselves further...
Need I go on? Well I will. Here's where I prefer Werner over Ron:
1. No threats or violence if you leave.
2. No enemies
3. No religious overtones.
4. No isolation from family.
5. No criminal activities by members
6. Strictly a money-making operation.
Of course, those involved will swear that they are better people for it, and
they probably are, as far as having a like-minded group reinforcing and
reflecting you make you better, but it's no miracle. So tell us all about
your experiences with Werner, David. And don't forget to tell us WHY he and
his FORMER COMPANIES (he sold his interests supposedly) are on the CoS
official enemies list.
Brought to you by Mars [tm] brand candies. Xenu's favorite!
Andy Testa I'm OT! I could KILL you with a thought!
testa@hou.moc.com BWAAAHHAAAAHAAAAAA!
Contributing to the downfall of Scientology since 1995.
From: hkhenson@shell.portal.com (H Keith Henson)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: What about Werner Erhardt and Scientology ?
Date: 27 Mar 1995 20:24:34 GMT
Andrew J. Testa (testa@starbase.neosoft.com) wrote:
: The entity known as Per Sabelstrom (xkkpesa@osd.ericsson.se) posted:
: * I saw Larry King Live about a year ago featuring Werner Erhardt (of EST
: * fame), where
: * he claimed that the Church of Scientology was after him.
: * Can some of you guys tell me what exectly he is accused of ?
: * Pelle
: Competition. All of Erhardt's organizations are on the official Co$
: Suppressive Organizations list. Earhardt's own money making scam was
: horning in on the profits in the "milk the insecure" game.
I seem to have a dim memory that Werner was a member of CoS for a while. If
so, he ripped off parts of the scam which looked to make the most money while
causing the least amount of problems for himself. I have never been involved
with either scam, but back during the time EST was a fad I was accused by
several people of being an EST grad. I was amused enough to look into it, and
identified it as a relatively harmful version of the Dale Carnige course.
Warner was well on his way into the same "guru trap" which got LRH. Remember
the project to end world hunger? Keith Henoson
adobe!decwrl!lll-winken.llnl.gov!venus.sun.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.an
s.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!strnlght Wed Mar 29 22:05:50 PST 1995
In article <3l6u2j$5lv@uuneo.neosoft.com*,
Andrew J. Testa <testa@starbase.neosoft.com* wrote:
* The entity known as David Sternlight (strnlght@netcom.com) posted:
** In article <3kv7d9$jbv@uuneo.neosoft.com*,
** Andrew J. Testa <testa@starbase.neosoft.com* wrote:
** * The entity known as Per Sabelstrom (xkkpesa@osd.ericsson.se) posted:
** ** I saw Larry King Live about a year ago featuring Werner Erhardt (of EST
** ** fame) , where
** ** he claimed that the Church of Scientology was after him.
** ** Can some of you guys tell me what exectly he is accused of ?
** ** Pelle
** *
** *Competition. All of Erhardt's organizations are on the official Co$
** *Suppressive Organizations list. Earhardt's own money making scam was
** *horning in on the profits in the "milk the insecure" game.
*
** Both of you know so little about Werner Erhard you can't even spell his
**name right.
*
** Before you start defaming someone, Testa, get some facts.
*
** David
*
*Well then, David. Since you know so much about me, you should know that I
*spent a little over a year of my life as an "esthole". That's right, I
*flung big bucks into Werner's operation. I did the Forum thing, took the
*classes and seminars, even shilled for him. I know a good bit about how
*Werner's operation works, regardless of how he spells his name. And
*it WAS and IS a 'milk the insecure' game. It turns introverted insecure
*people into extroverted insecure people, hence the 'esthole' moniker.
*It relies on heavy handed recruitment tactics, an initial course (the Forum)
*that consists of a weekend-long highly regimented indoctrination that leaves
*you feeling great after tearing down your emotionasl barriers. And wanting
*more.
False. First of all, you don't seem to know what "esthole" means since you
didn't do the est Training, but the Forum, a completely different thing.
Second, it's not a "milk the insecure game." SCN costs, it's been estimated,
several hundreds of thousands of dollars, and there's an endless "bridge" to
get up, with program after program, sequentially related to get to the "holy
grail". In contrast, the Forum costs about $300 and when I last looked took
two week-ends and an evening.
The seminars are almost break-even-they cost about $75 for ten sessions in a
first class hotel ballroom. Each is on a different topic--money, creativity,
etc. They are independent of the Forum, there's no "bridge" to get up, and
when you've done the Forum you've gotten the result.
*It relies on continual participation and advancing class that cost large
*bucks.
It's practically free compared to Scientology. The "advanced program" is a
one-time outward-bound-like experience that costs under $1000 when last I
looked. You don't "need" it to complete the Forum. Those who do it do so
because they want the experience of physical mastery over the ropes course,
the challenge of the morning run, and the associated material relevant to
surmounting personal limitations. In a sense it's like what Tony Robbins
offers in breaking through limitations. It's nothing like Scientology or est
or the Forum--it's a separate program. It's not part of some "bridge" designed
to milk "parishioners".
* It relies on members to volunteer their time as part of their
*participation. It relies on strict discipline and regimentation with the
*only justification being "because that's how Werner wanted it".
About ten percent of the participants volunteer to assist. Those who do do so
for the personal benefit of selfless contribution. If you don't want to you
don't need to.
* It relies on hounding those who decline to participate further, claiming
*the fact they want to leave is proof that issues are preventing them from
*bettering themselves further...
*
I don't know where you got this "want to leave" stuff, but it's not part of
any of Werner's programs. Are you sure you're not confusing it with
Scientology? Or maybe you're talking about not keeping your agreement when you
agreed to assist. Note that assisting agreements are quite short in duration,
but since some involve helping set up the room for a seminar, or phoning for
an event or enrollment, you need to be counted on.
If you don't keep your agreements perhaps there's something there to learn
about yourself. Note also the difference between not keeping your agreement
and formally revoking it. If you don't show up when you promised to, you've
betrayed both those who were counting on you and yourself. If you formally
withdraw with notice, then others (or you) can find a replacement for the
things others were counting on you for.
As to "hounding"--there's no hounding. People are called with information on
the next seminar, or invited to volunteer to assist. If they say "no" it means
"no." If the rely on polite circumlocution, the caller might continue with the
conversation to bring them to "no" or "yes"--it doesn't matter which. If they
say they don't want to be called, DNC is put on their card (Do Not Call) and
that's it. Your account suggests to me that you have a problem being clear or
being decisive. That's not someone else's fault.
*Need I go on? Well I will. Here's where I prefer Werner over Ron:
*
*1. No threats or violence if you leave.
*2. No enemies
*3. No religious overtones.
*4. No isolation from family.
*5. No criminal activities by members
*6. Strictly a money-making operation.
The last is untrue. The purpose of the organization is human transformation.
Making money is a test of validity in the real world. If the programs aren't
serving people, they won't make money and the organization should go under.
Making money is how we test the validity of all our organizations in a market
society, except those which are considered "charitable" and survive on real
donations (not the "suggested" kinds of the Scienos) or foundation support, or
those sucking on the public teat via government. Neither the CoS or the
Landmark Education Corporation (the successor to Werner) is, as far as I know,
a public charity living on VOLUNTARY donations, though the CoS does live on a
price list disguised as "donations".
*Of course, those involved will swear that they are better people for it, and
*they probably are, as far as having a like-minded group reinforcing and
*reflecting you make you better, but it's no miracle.
What? Who said anything about miracles. Do you have some unfulfilled
expectations you created and are now dumping on this conversation or
Werner?
* So tell us all about
*your experiences with Werner, David. And don't forget to tell us
*WHY he and his FORMER COMPANIES (he sold his interests supposedly) are
*on the CoS official enemies list.
The Forum, which basically teaches the work of the mainstream philosopher
Heidegger, provides valuable insight into the being of human beings, what it
means to be a human being, and related stuff relevant to understanding one's
own life and to being-in-the-world. Its value lies in that work, not in any
self-congratulatory groupie phenomenon.
As to why the Scienos have Werner and his orgs on their enemies list,
including such as The Hunger Project, which has nothing to do with est, the
Forum, or personal development, but is strictly a consciousness-raising
organization about world hunger, you'll have to ask the Scienos. Let me know
what they say. I think it's a personal vendetta because Werner was once a
senior executive of Scientology and left. He's always been polite about
Scientology, and has no enemies list, suppressive people, potential trouble
sources or "bridge".
David
--
"I don't understand why they call it public broadcasting. As far as I am
concerned, there's nothing public about it; it's an elitist enterprise.
'Rush Limbaugh' is public broadcasting." Newt Gingrich
*From
adobe!decwrl!lll-winken.llnl.gov!venus.sun.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.an
s.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!strnlght Wed Mar 29 22:06:41 PST 1995
In article <3l76u2$9ni@news1.shell*,
H Keith Henson <hkhenson@shell.portal.com* wrote:
*Andrew J. Testa (testa@starbase.neosoft.com) wrote:
*: The entity known as Per Sabelstrom (xkkpesa@osd.ericsson.se) posted:
*: * I saw Larry King Live about a year ago featuring Werner Erhardt (of
EST
*: * fame) , where
*: * he claimed that the Church of Scientology was after him.
*: * Can some of you guys tell me what exectly he is accused of ?
*: * Pelle
*
*: Competition. All of Erhardt's organizations are on the official Co$
*: Suppressive Organizations list. Earhardt's own money making scam was
*: horning in on the profits in the "milk the insecure" game.
*I seem to have a dim memory that Werner was a member of CoS for a while.
*If so, he ripped off parts of the scam which looked to make the most money
*while causing the least amount of problems for himself. I have never been
*involved with either scam, but back during the time EST was a fad I was
*accused by several people of being an EST grad. I was amused enough to look
*into it, and identified it as a relatively harmful version of the Dale
*Carnige course. Warner was well on his way into the same "guru trap" which
*got LRH. Remember the project to end world hunger? Keith Henoson
Another slough of misinformation.
Werner didn't "rip off parts of the scam which looked to make the most money
while causing the least amount of problems for himself." Let's have some
specific evidence, not this kind of sliming.
How was "est" relatively harmful? Evidence, please.
How was est a version of the Dale Carnegie course? Evidence, please. It's
clear you know nothing about either.
How was Werner on his way to a "guru trap"? Please be specific and cite
evidence.
As for "The Hunger Project", it is still fine. It is a consciousness raising
and coordination organization about world hunger, and a recognized United
Nations NGO (non-governmental organization). It saved hundreds of thousands of
lives by alerting the world community to the famine in Ethiopia some years
ago, allowing the delivery organizations to mobilize aid long before they
would otherwise have done, and was acknowledged for that.
Its board of advisors includes some of the most distinguished government,
academic, and other experts on world hunger, unlike the toy celebrities
Scientology uses.
It has been widely acknowledged by heads of state for its contributions to
helping end world hunger.
The basic principle of The Hunger Project is: We have the organization,
logistics, technology, and supply capability to end world hunger. What's
lacking is the political will.
The Hunger Project was created to help generate that political will, and has
succeeded admirably, with plenty of chapter and verse.
Next time learn something about what you're posting before shooting off your
keyboard.
David
--
"I don't understand why they call it public broadcasting. As far as I am
concerned, there's nothing public about it; it's an elitist enterprise.
'Rush Limbaugh' is public broadcasting." Newt Gingrich
*From
adobe!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!c
aen!zip.eecs.umich.edu!news-server!kckluge Fri Mar 31 18:14:23 PST 1995
In article <strnlghtD680HL.A1A@netcom.com* strnlght@netcom.com (David
Sternlight) writes:
: In contrast, the Forum costs about $300 and when I last looked took
: two week-ends and an evening.
When you last looked was obviously quite some time ago. About 4 years ago
there was a big wave of people from the department I was in who did the Forum,
and at that time the cost was already over $500.
: As to "hounding"-there's no hounding. People are called with information on
: the next seminar, or invited to volunteer to assist. If they say "no" it
: means "no." If the rely on polite circumlocution, the caller might continue
: with the conversation to bring them to "no" or "yes"--it doesn't matter
: which. If they say they don't want to be called, DNC is put on their card
: (Do Not Call) and that's it. Your account suggests to me that you have a
: problem being clear or being decisive. That's not someone else's fault.
Thanks for documenting why, despite any change in name or methods, the label
"esthole" can still be appropriate. As Miss Manners would no doubt say, "And
what is wrong with polite circumlocution?" If you can't *TELL* that someone is
using polite circumlocution to say "no", then of course it is reasonable to
continue the conversation until you figure it out.
If you *CAN* tell that they're saying "no" and you continue the conversation
to force them to say "no" in so many words, then you're being an esthole. Is
that clear and decisive enough for you?
:The last is untrue.The purpose of the organization is human transformation.
:Making money is a test of validity in the real world.If the programs aren't
:serving people, they won't make money and the organization should go under.
People who sell subliminal tapes make money and stay in business. That doesn't
mean that subliminal tapes objectively produce results. It merely means that
the people who buy them *believe* that they have produced a result. In fact,
this has been documented in controlled studies. However good the Forum may
have made people I know who did it feel about themselves, frankly I didn't see
much difference before and after.
: The Forum, which basically teaches the work of the mainstream philosopher
: Heidegger, provides valuable insight into the being of human beings, what
:it means to be a human being, and related stuff relevant to understanding
:one's own life and to being-in-the-world. Its value lies in that work, not
:in any self-congratulatory groupie phenomenon.
The Forum cloaks a bunch of standard techniques for emotionally manipulating
people in a Heideggerian verbal framework. I will, however, admit that as
such organizations go it appeared relatively benign compared to groups like
Lifespring.
: As to why the Scienos have Werner and his orgs on their enemies list,
: including such as The Hunger Project, which has nothing to do with est,the
:Forum, or personal development, but is strictly a consciousness-raising
: organization about world hunger, you'll have to ask the Scienos.
The Hunger Project has nothing to do with the Forum? So when the presenter for
a Hunger Project presentation talk about changing the "conversation" about
hunger, and making the "distinction" between famine and chronic persistent
hunger, and has the audience do visualization exercises, you're saying that
none of that comes out of the Forum?
*From
adobe!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neo
soft.com!hou.moc.com!testa Fri Mar 31 18:20:59 PST 1995
The entity known as David Sternlight (strnlght@netcom.com) posted:
* In article <3l6u2j$5lv@uuneo.neosoft.com*,
* Andrew J. Testa <testa@starbase.neosoft.com* wrote:
* * The entity known as David Sternlight (strnlght@netcom.com) posted:
* ** In article <3kv7d9$jbv@uuneo.neosoft.com*,
* *
* *Well then, David. Since you know so much about me, you should know that
I
* *spent a little over a year of my life as an "esthole". That's right, I
* *flung big bucks into Werner's operation. I did the Forum thing, took the
* *classes and seminars, even shilled for him. I know a good bit about how
* *Werner's operation works, regardless of how he spells his name. And
* *it WAS and IS a 'milk the insecure' game. It turns introverted insecure
* *people into extroverted insecure people, hence the 'esthole' moniker.
**It relies on heavy handed recruitment tactics, an initial course (the Forum)
**that consists of a weekend-long highly regimented indoctrination that leaves
* *you feeling great after tearing down your emotionasl barriers. And wanting
* *more.
* False. First of all, you don't seem to know what "esthole" means since you
* didn't do the est Training, but the Forum, a completely different thing.
True. The Forum was less abusive than EST, but still made estholes. I dealt
with them a lot.
*Second, it's not a "milk the insecure game." SCN costs, it's been
estimated,
* several hundreds of thousands of dollars, and there's an endless "bridge"
to
* get up, with program after program, sequentially related to get to the
"holy
* grail". In contrast, the Forum costs about $300 and when I last looked
took
* two week-ends and an evening.
When I took the Forum in 1986(?) it cost $500. I know from others that it has
gone up. Yes, it was two weekends. I forgot.
* The seminars are almost break-even--they cost about $75 for ten sessions in
* a first class hotel ballroom. Each is on a different topic--money,
* creativity, etc. They are independent of the Forum, there's no "bridge" to
* get up, and when you've done the Forum you've gotten the result.
Wrong. Our seminars were NOT in a first class ballroom. They were at the
local Area Center. They are NOT independent of the Forum, and the Forum is
not the end of the trail. At the end of the Forum, you are hit with a hard
sell for the seminars, and told that you only KEEP the results of the Forum as
long as you remain active in the seminars. You are EXPECTED to always be
enrolled in at least one seminar. The Forum is only the beginning and this is
made clear when the Forum is over.
* *It relies on continual participation and advancing class that cost large
* *bucks.
* It's practically free compared to Scientology. The "advanced program" is a
* one-time outward-bound-like experience that costs under $1000 when last I
* looked. You don't "need" it to complete the Forum. Those who do it do so
* because they want the experience of physical mastery over the ropes course,
* the challenge of the morning run, and the associated material relevant to
* surmounting personal limitations. In a sense it's like what Tony Robbins
* offers in breaking through limitations. It's nothing like Scientology or est
* or the Forum--it's a separate program. It's not part of some "bridge"
* designed to milk "parishioners".
Yes, it IS practically free compared to CoS, and I don't consider it a cult as
I do Co$, for the reasons I outlined below. But the Advanced program cost
WELL over $1000 ten years ago. And we were told to take it NOW before costs
went up. It most certainly IS part of whole Forum-seminar program. I was
told by the Area Center folks to change my life so that I could take the
Advanced course. I was a poor student at the time working part time, and they
told me to make the advanced course my goal. They wanted me to get a different
job so I could afford the advanced course.
I'll say it again for those not paying close attention: We were told that if
our life situations were preventing us from participating in the programs, to
change our lives. The program was what's important. I worked nights and
couldn't take a seminar, I was told to work another shift. I couldn't afford
the advanced course, and I was told to get another job so that I could. They
wouldn't listen when I told them my future career plans were more important
than taking the course. They said the course may not be around when I feel
like taking it, that I needed to take it as soon as possible. And it was
heavily promoted at the "sales pitch" section in the middle of each seminar
meeting.
* * It relies on members to volunteer their time as part of their
* *participation. It relies on strict discipline and regimentation with the
* *only justification being "because that's how Werner wanted it".
* About ten percent of the participants volunteer to assist. Those who do do
* so for the personal benefit of selfless contribution. If you don't want to
* you don't need to.
But we were told that volunteering was a part of our participation.
* *It relies on hounding those who decline to participate further, claiming
* *the fact they want to leave is proof that issues are preventing them from
* *bettering themselves further...
* I don't know where you got this "want to leave" stuff, but it's not part of
* any of Werner's programs. Are you sure you're not confusing it with
*Scientology? Or maybe you're talking about not keeping your agreement when
* you agreed to assist. Note that assisting agreements are quite short in
* duration, but since some involve helping set up the room for a seminar, or
* phoning for an event or enrollment, you need to be counted on.
Yes it is. Others have told me as well. When I declined to sign up for a
seminar, I was treated like a truant. I was accosted by the center people and
told that my desire to stop taking the seminars was a indicator that I was
sliding back, and that I'd have a great breakthrough if I continued. I always
kept my agreements when I assisted, even down to measuring the distance
between chair legs and making sure the information packets under the chairs
were in the right order and exactly centered under the seats. I am most
definitely talking about continuing in the seminar program.
* If you don't keep your agreements perhaps there's something there to learn
* about yourself. Note also the difference between not keeping your agreement
* and formally revoking it. If you don't show up when you promised to, you've
* betrayed both those who were counting on you and yourself. If you formally
* withdraw with notice, then others (or you) can find a replacement for the
* things others were counting on you for.
This was not the the case. I always did what I said. You are your word,
after all.
* As to "hounding"--there's no hounding. People are called with information on
* the next seminar, or invited to volunteer to assist. If they say "no" it
* means "no." If the rely on polite circumlocution, the caller might continue
* with the conversation to bring them to "no" or "yes"--it doesn't matter
* which. If they say they don't want to be called, DNC is put on their card
* (Do Not Call) and that's it. Your account suggests to me that you have a
* problem being clear or being decisive. That's not someone else's fault.
There is DEFINITELY hounding. And there is a good justification for it. On of
the first things the Forum teaches is that there is no such thing as pressure,
as in peer pressure. That you can't be made to do what you don't desire to
do. Besides being a crock of shit, it allows them to put the fault on you if
you tell them to stop pressuring you. I was hounded for weeks. They called
me almost everyday, telling me about the breakthroughs that awaited me. They
would not take no for an answer. It got to the point where I had to hang up
on them or they'd never stop. Finally the calls petered out and stopped. The
sad part is that the phones aren't manned by staff members, but grunt level
volunteers. So I was being hounded by people I had sat in groups with and who
were persuing their own breakthroughs by cold calling truants. I have NO
problem saying what I think, and saying NO definitively.
This policy was not unique to the center, either. Several magazine and
newspaper articles about Werner at the time said the same thing about other
centers. I remember one article where the person being interviewed didn't
want to be identified because they didn't want the calls to start again.
* *Need I go on? Well I will. Here's where I prefer Werner over Ron:
* *
* *1. No threats or violence if you leave.
* *2. No enemies
* *3. No religious overtones.
* *4. No isolation from family.
* *5. No criminal activities by members
* *6. Strictly a money-making operation.
* The last is untrue. The purpose of the organization is human transformation.
* Making money is a test of validity in the real world. If the programs aren't
* serving people, they won't make money and the organization should go under.
* Making money is how we test the validity of all our organizations in a
* market society, except those which are considered "charitable" and survive
* on real donations (not the "suggested" kinds of the Scienos) or foundation
* support, or those sucking on the public teat via government. Neither the CoS
* or the Landmark Education Corporation (the successor to Werner) is, as far
* as I know, a public charity living on VOLUNTARY donations, though the CoS
* does live on a price list disguised as "donations".
Yeah, I hear you. I give them credit for trying, but I don't believe it. I
worked for an Aerospace company whose top management was all involved in
Werner's program. I even did a Forum recruitment session with one of them.
They had a "Leadership" class that was mandatory for anyone who wanted to go
into management, and it was suggested that all employees take it. It was
heavily patterned after the seminars. It sucked. It taught that our way is
the only way. If you disagreed with them you were "obstructing" the learning
of others. You got negative marks in your Human Resources files if you argued
the validity of the class teachings. So human transformation may be the stated
goal, but it doesn't live up to it. People stay in and continue taking the
seminars because they become dependant on the group. The group tells them it
is their path to transformation, and leaving that path means you don't get
transformed. Come to think of it, it DOES sound a bit like a cult now,
doesn't it?
**Of course, those involved will swear that they are better people for it, and
* *they probably are, as far as having a like-minded group reinforcing and
* *reflecting you make you better, but it's no miracle.
* What? Who said anything about miracles. Do you have some unfulfilled
* expectations you created and are now dumping on this conversation or Werner?
No, I'm saying that group reinforcement and promises of personal breakthroughs
are NOT the end, but a means. The end is a life in transformation, but you
must have the means to get there. Werner provided that means but you had to
continually ride the wagon. There is no "your transformed, go in peace" with
this organization. You lose your transformation when you decline to
participate further. Therefore the promise of transformation is only an
illusion.
* The Forum, which basically teaches the work of the mainstream philosopher
* Heidegger, provides valuable insight into the being of human beings, what it
* means to be a human being, and related stuff relevant to understanding one's
* own life and to being-in-the-world. Its value lies in that work, not in any
* self-congratulatory groupie phenomenon.
But you can't do it on your own. You MUST be involved in the organization to
achieve its promises. This is suspicious. We were told you couldn't get the
results of the Forum anywhere else. Not from a book, not from personal
insight. You needed the group.
* As to why the Scienos have Werner and his orgs on their enemies list,
*including such as The Hunger Project, which has nothing to do with est,
the
* Forum, or personal development, but is strictly a consciousness-raising
* organization about world hunger, you'll have to ask the Scienos. Let me know
* what they say. I think it's a personal vendetta because Werner was once a
* senior executive of Scientology and left. He's always been polite about
* Scientology, and has no enemies list, suppressive people, potential trouble
* sources or "bridge".
As I said, I'd rather Werner any day to CoS. But I think Werner put a lot of
problematic procedures and teachings into the programs. They were troubling
enough that I wanted no more of them. And ten years later, I'm no worse off
than any of the folks who stayed in. And they're no better off than I am. So
where's the transformation?
I really don't mean to flame you David. I agree with some of what you say
about Co$, but I'm surprised at the hard line you suddenly took about
criticism of Werner. Can you not see the similarities? I am perfectly willing
to acknowledge that Werner is nowhere NEAR LRH, but there are certainly
similarities. I don't begrudge Werner some money, but I don't think the
promises are delivered on, and I don't like what I've seen people do as a
result of their breakthroughs. Nothing terrible, nothing illegal. And I have
seen people have good breakthroughs. But I've seen unethical things too, not
just from grunts, but seminar leaders, and it made me uneasy.
--
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